COBRA International 10s 2007

JJ and I were at the COBRA International 10s on Sunday, 28th October and we brought along Adam who is also a rugby nut. It was good to meet up with Kele Seow and Mun Yee again, not to mention, the COBRA gang, Rory Teng, Kang, Jasvinder and so many others.

The roast duck that Louis brought was really good. Brings back memories when the COBRA 10s was a family outing with each of the mothers contributing something for all.

It was as usual a booze up session from morning to evening and the searing heat was again to blame. We did not stay for the Final eventhough the COBRA team qualified for the first time in years. Adam had to attend the wedding of the son of his long time client Tan Sri Halim Mazmin that evening.

Unfortunately, COBRA lost to Canterbury, 12-29.

An Annual Ritual That Will Never Be The Same Again

In 2004, after Jeannie had her colon operation she decided to celebrate her 45th birthday with a roast pig party; she was born in the Year of the Pig. That was also the same time we met cousin Nick's colleague from London, Adam Morgan. For the decade Adam spent in Hong Kong, he had never attended a party where the main dish was a whole roast pig.

Later in the year, Adam visited KL again as the legal advisor to the owners of the Malaysian A1 Grand Prix team in its inaugural year. He introduced us to the key members of the team including owner, Jack Cunningham and marketing director, Owen Leed. Jeannie and I hosted lunch at the Hakka Restaurant. Our new friends liked the restaurant so much (especially the deep fried trotter, below) that we all agreed to make it an annual ritual whenever the A1GP leg was in Malaysia.

Last year, the Malaysian leg coincided with Jeannie's 47th birthday and Jack, Owen and Adam presented her with a bottle of Moet & Chandon. The bottle of champagne still remained after Jeannie's passing.

It was different this year without Jeannie when I met Adam and Owen for lunch at Hakka last Saturday. Jack was still in UK and would arrive in KL before race weekend, 24/25th November. I had brought the bottle along intending to share it in honour of Jeannie but after a bottle of Chivas later, we decided to open it on Tuesday when we planned to meet again. We were to meet for dinner just before Adam's flight back to UK, at El Cerdo Restaurant, Jalan Changkat Bukit Bintang where the theme is PORK!

Invariably, conversation was centred on Jeannie and how things would be with her around.

Looking at the photograph on the left, perhaps Jeannie was with us more than just in spirit at the Hakka Restaurant that day; notice the mysterious "energy orb" near Owen's face.

Wherever you are Darling, you are never far from our hearts.

Bangsa Malaysia Discussion

This thread is ongoing in my Edwardian_Tigers EGroup.

----- Original Message ----From: Nicholas ONG To: Edwardian_Tigers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, 27 October 2007 11:16:08
Subject: RE: For CP. What Dreams May Come
Suet,

Yes, you’re right, for everything that we debated about - before & after, what we really need & have to live is, now.

(eh.. that will actually bring me back to atheism….ha!) Good weekend.


nic

***********************************************************************************

From: Edwardian_Tigers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Edwardian_Tigers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Suet Fun Liew
Sent: 29 October 2007 09:11
To: Edwardian_Tigers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Whatever you conceive Him to be, or not

Nic

Ah...a mind-bending subject-God, or not. Wars have been fought, dinners have been left cold, gloves-off polemics exchanged for all eternity. In my limited experience, no one has ever been able to persuade another to agree amicably, except when they embrace, unequivocally, the same faith. However, it makes for a riveting discussion. :)

If there's a god, he will be highly amused that we labour so hard, so long to disagree on his existence, or his nature.

If there's no god, well, its more mental masturbation or stubborn persistence to convince everyone we are right.

All this, while life passes by and we play at god by creating right-angled watermelons and black tomato sauce. Sum total of years of evolution.

Have a great week,

Suet

************************************************************************************

SF,

I do not think anyone was preaching here and as CP put it, “to each his own”. What I cannot understand was his reluctance to engage in further “conversation” as if the literal Christian abhors logic. Honestly, I was and am searching; mental masturbation perhaps. I was not trying to convince anyone otherwise.

Since CP is the closest thing here to an authority on Christianity (I know Liz goes to church too) I wanted to get a perspective. Actually, CP’s conversation was essentially with Deepak Chopra! I was comparing two schools (Hindu/Christian) of thought about mortality.

This country would be a better place if more of us can talk openly about our beliefs and non-beliefs, rather than just pay lip service to our so called multi-cultural and multi-religious society and co-existence. Take Islam for instance, if most Muslims here think it is sacrilegious for a non-Muslim to discuss Islam, why was there an impressive array of local Islamic intelligentsia hanging on to every word that came out of Karen Armstrong’s mouth recently. I can only conclude that they would not think so.

Hidup Bangsa Malaysia!

KS

************************************************************************************
From: Edwardian_Tigers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Edwardian_Tigers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Suet Fun Liew
Sent: 29 October 2007 10:54To: Edwardian_Tigers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Whatever you conceive Him to be, or not

KS

I have been following the discussion with keen interest, and understand your thread. My personal opinion is that no matter how many books we read, no matter who we listen to, the answer is in our hearts. Whoever created us knew what he was doing, because I believe we have a built-in capacity to recognise good and bad, and understand right and wrong. When I say heart, I speak not merely about emotions, but a kind of heightened awareness of ourselves and the world around us. When we respond at that level, without the "domestication" of teaching, maybe we find the kernel of our existence. Maybe.

I must confess that I generally distrust organised religion and thought, believing that our own intellectual take is often flawed by our personal prejudices and predilection. That our own stabs at intellectualizing the nature of life and the universe may often be shrouded by our personal motives, sometimes at a sub-conscious level, sometimes on a very conscious, deliberate level.

As for bangsa Malaysia, as long as there is institutionalised segregation, I don't believe its evolution is possible. Its lip service and feel good, but the walls keep growing."The best lack all convictions, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity"

Suet

************************************************************************************

SF,

I think any reflection on religious/spiritual/life cannot and should not be divorced from personal prejudices, predilection and motives. As the person doing the reflecting, continuous introspection is the critical for me. I agree that “our own stabs at intellectualizing the nature of life and the universe may often be shrouded by our personal motives” and this is always at the back of my mind; I try to be consciously aware even of the sub-conscious and of course the deliberate. Introspection.

The walls of institutionalized segregation can only be torn down by those who “benefit” from it. I think what we are witnessing with the “growing walls” is utter paranoia and panic in the face of unexpected public reactions to matters that were once consider sacred or taboo. Feel good for whom? It can only get worse before it can get better. Let’s hope it would not be too late for the nation.

KS

************************************************************************************

KS

In some ways I am an optimist, in some ways a pessimist. I hope that what you say is true because like you, I hope for Bangsa Malaysia to evolve. I hope that what you say is true, that things get worse before they get better. I hope that our beloved, splendid country can rise to its feet and realise that the greatest gift it possesses is the wondrous diversity of its people. You know I spent the last few months walking through paddy fields, falling into muddy puddles, bathing in bathrooms without doors and sleeping in huts. In that passage, the people I spoke to left me feeling incredulous and awed. They were getting on with their lives, doing the best they can and leaving self-analysis behind. They were dirt poor but dignified. They embraced us, for most part, with open arms, open hearts.

I think I became more pessimistic returning to our city. Bearing the false pride of the Twin Towers and a false sense of progress (do the neighbours speak to each other?) and humanity (quick, cut from fast lane to the exit in 3 metres), we do not know that one hour out of Miri there is no electricity and running water, the roads turn into a muddy river after one heavy downpour and somewhere in Tenom Sabah, people are sitting on pushcarts, pushing themselves six miles home on a railway track as we sip our single malt whiskeys and discuss Bangsa Malaysia.

Suet

************************************************************************************

Dear Suet Fun,

Bangsa Malaysia can only be achieved by a few like-minded people living in a limited universe. It will never come to Malaysia for forever coz the Malays will eventually be 90 % of the population in 50 - 100 years with the help of Indon migrants.

What is immediate is the concept of the "Political Community". It means if Ah Swee, Sugumaran and Awang are in New York and a Qwailoh says, "Your Country is shit". The instantaneous anger and non-approbation by the three Malaysians are the manifestation of the political community.

This is a long study of Clifford Geetz's "Primordial Sentiments" and the implications therefrom.

If you go to the boondocks, as it were, you are enthralled by the "difference", its really a temporary aberration. I lived in the bush almost all my life, vainglory aside, I studied their culture, language, sanguinity,risked my life with them and shamanism. You must identify where are they on the continuum of socio-cultural evolution beginning with the simple agrarian society members to some of us at the end of the continuum - the industrial IT society members. The mindset of each society is decisive upon the difference. You have to bring to bear the variables of social anthropology - human species - and keep as the guidance for the perplexed.

Mike

************************************************************************************

Here’s my thought, when things get worse, there are only 4 possible scenarios will follow through, either it will turn worse (worst??), or so bad that you’ll die, or you recover (ideal but what’s the likelihood?) or you are stuck in perpetual suffering waiting for the worst to be over. LOL!

Cakap kosong lah…


nic

************************************************************************************

Thanks Mike. You continue to teach us. Your take on “conceptual framework” some time ago still echoes.

Ah Swee

************************************************************************************

Dear Mike

Appreciate the point of view.:)

I must admit I am ignorant of the finer points of anthropology and sociology, and I must say that my experience is purely humanistic. I do not doubt that life will change for these societies; in Loagan Bunut, Rumah Kajan Sigeh Astro already holds the tribe enthralled, despite the lack of electricity. The RM 50 diesel per night generator keeps the cartoons and B-grade movies coming. They're all making a beeline to the other end of the continuum where we languish :), discussing God, our dogs, perplexity and the quality of mercy, which is strained indeed.

Salut... :)

Suet

************************************************************************************

Remembering Jeannie - Videos from the Past (2)

Jeannie had always been more adventurous compared to me. She got hooked on parasailing after this first experience in Pulau Pangkor in 2000. Yes, darling you are indeed now "free like a bird"!!

Another Conversation With A Christian Perhaps: "What Dreams May Come"

*************************************************************************************

Further to the last "conversation" I was wondering if CP would be willing to continue "cakap kosong" with me in a seemingly pointless conversation. The following is my post to that effect:

From: Cheah Keat Swee
Sent: 26 October, 2007 02.05 AM
Subject: For CP. What Dreams May Come


Dear CP,

Once again, I would thank you for the recent conversation. It was indeed meant only to be a conversation and nothing more. As in any conversation the “to each his own” premise is well underpinned. Superfluous to even mention it, I should think.

Perhaps you could humor me some more. I would like to refer to Shakespeare’s Hamlet and the famous soliloquy, “To be or not to be,” Hamlet wonders whether to commit suicide in the face of overwhelming misery and anxiety.…….To die, to sleep;
To sleep; perchance to dream: aye there’s the rub;
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come,
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause.
Are you familiar with the above?

KS

.......CONTINUES IN THE COMMENTS SECTION BELOW.

Remembering Jeannie - Videos from the Past (1)

I have a sizeable collection of home videos, especially pre-2005 when Jeannie was not yet reluctant to be captured on video. She always felt she did not look good on video and even more so after she became unwell. While I have not been able to find the time to edit and convert most of them for upload to the Net, there are a few "ready" ones on my hard disk.

Going through these videos for my previous post on our enjoyable times at COBRA, brought back loads of memories. I would like to share some of them here in a new series of posts, starting with this winning karaoke performance by multi-talented Jeannie. "Looking Through The Eyes Of Love" by Melissa Manchester was one of her favourite numbers.

It is a pity that I have not got many of her karaoke sessions on video. Singing was her passion; some of the most endearing memories I have are of her belting away with her Shure mike and BMB speakers at home and her greatest fan, Prince Cheah by her side. I can swear that if you closed your eyes when Jeannie sang some Theresa Teng numbers, you would not be able to tell them apart.

Some Videos: Our Times With COBRA (The Combined Old Boys Rugby Association)

After more than a month of RWC, we now have the COBRA 10s this weekend at PJ Stadium, Kelana Jaya. Good tournament to watch. This is after all the premier rugby tens tournament in the world.

COBRA Club was for a few years (the mid-90s till about 2004) a large part of Jeannie's and my social life. Jeannie loved a good party. It was only because of her detioterating health that we stopped being regulars at the club. We had so many great moments there and our "COBRA family" remains till today.

I am glad the last COBRA 10s tournament Jeannie attended in 2004, she was at the head of the COBRA contingent during the march past. The video must be somewhere around. Nevertheless, do check out the following videos; they are worth more than words:

FIJI PLAYERS SOCIAL NITE

17TH WEDDING ANNIVERSARY PARTY AT COBRA 2003

Anniversary Speech

I was just thinking of Saturday and wondered what I would say if asked to make a speech. What would I say indeed?

One thing’s for sure, there is so much that I could say about us that most of those present can already see; yet there is nothing I can say that will ever show them the true love we share and the relationship that we have.

There are those who wonder why we have chosen to celebrate a 17th wedding anniversary. I find this interesting because it is a natural tendency to measure a relationship in terms of the numbers of years clocked. I suppose it is all a matter of perspective.

Ours has always been one of a countdown rather than of notching the years. A conscious decision we made to cherish and relish our remaining years together has enhanced our relationship and defined our marriage. Every anniversary we share reduces the number of anniversaries we have left; yet we are happy. We are happy to have found each other, we are happy to be together, we are happy to walk together.

My darling, you are to me more precious than life. If given a choice between immortality without you, and counting down years together with you. I would choose the finite.

Happy anniversary my Darling. May the years we have left be more than the 17 wonderful years we have shared as "US".

JJ AT THE 2000 COBRA TENS

2001 COBRA ANNUAL DINNER-COBRA LINE DANCERS

....to be continued

It's The Springboks!!

As expected, South Africa won the 2007 Rugby World Cup final against England. To their credit the resurgent English put up a good show but they were never quite good enough against a Springbok side that was well drilled and disciplined tactically.

South Africa deserved to win the World Cup as it was the most consistent team in the tournament. There were three major surprises in this world cup; the All Blacks, the Pumas and the England Rose. In a way the All Blacks failure was in line with its world cup record but the Argentinian Pumas beating France for 3rd spot after its surprise semi-final qualification gives fresh hope that the future of international rugby is bright. The perenial dominance by a handful of nations can never be good for the sport.

The following is the match report from the RWC Official site:

South Africa win world cup

Champions: Francois Steyn and the Springboks celebrate world cup glory

PARIS, 20 October - South Africa defeated England 15-6 in the world cup final at Stade de France on Saturday to add a second Webb Ellis Cup to the one they won as hosts in 1995.

Reigning champions England came into the match on the back of four impressive victories after a poor start to the tournament but were unable to find a way through a disciplined Springboks outfit who were miserly in defence, dominated the line-outs and kicked five penalties.

England fly half Jonny Wilkinson, the hero of their 2003 triumph in Sydney, was unable to turn on the magic this time, missing two drop goal attempts and given little chance to impose himself on the match.

South Africa led England 9-3 at the break after an even first half marked by tactical high kicking and little open play.

Both sides sought to flex their muscle and apply pressure with a series of up-and-unders, though to little avail.

Percy Montgomery opened the scoring with a three-pointer on seven minutes after centre Mathew Tait had slipped and become isolated in the ruck and England were penalised for failing to release.

Wilkinson squared the ledger on 13 minutes after South Africa wing Bryan Habana was called for lying on the tackled player, counterpart Paul Sackey.

Repelled on line

But Montgomery regained the advantage for South Africa three minutes later after team-mate Butch James was adjudged to have been impeded on a kick and chase.

Wilkinson tried a quick riposte but pushed his drop goal attempt wide.

South Africa twice attacked late in the half but were repelled on the line on both occasions.

However, they were awarded a penalty for the second drive and Montgomery kicked truly to push the margin out to six points.

England began the second half in sensational style as Tait cut a swathe through the middle of the South Africa defence with a series of steps and swerves to set Mark Cueto up for a try. But after a long deliberation by the TV match official, the wing was ruled to have been in touch when he crossed over in the corner.

A Wilkinson penalty kick for an infringement earlier in the movement was some consolation, though.

England's hopes were hit on 48 minutes when full back Jason Robinson, playing his last match before retirement, left the field with a shoulder injury.

Montogmery squeezed home his fourth penalty from as many kicks on 51 minutes to restore his side's six-point lead (12-6) after England conceded for handling in a ruck. Francois Steyn took over the kicking duties on 62 minutes when England were penalised for obstruction and the impressive young centre didn't let his side down, piercing the uprights from 46 metres.

Conversation With A Christian - UPDATED (20th October,2007)

This "conversation" is in my Yahoo E-Group for ex-students of King Edward VII School, Taiping. Ching Pin, 44 is single and a staunch Christian. He is currently working as an administrator in a church in Ampang, I think. At the time of posting, the chat is on-going.

***********************************************************************************

From: Cheah Keat Swee
Sent: 04 October 2007 11:07 AM
Subject: For CP: Death/ Life

CP,

Just for you. What would you write if asked for your comments about the statement:

"Life Begins with Death"?

KS

***************************************************************************

From: Soo Ching Pin
Sent: 04 October 2007 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: For CP: Death/ Life

KS,

We all spent about 9 months in our mothers' wombs. Our births put an end to that, and ushered us into a whole new life outside the womb.

In the same way, death may be the end of our earthly existence, but it could also be a doorway to a new existence in eternity.

In that sense it would be the beginning of a new life.

CP

***************************************************************************

From: Cheah Keat Swee
Sent: 05 October 2007 11:56 AM
Subject: Re: For CP: Death/ Life

Dear CP,

Following up on the topic; I would like to ask you about your statement "death… could also be a doorway to a new existence in eternity."

Do you reckon eternity is measured in linear time? Sort of like at the moment of death, it carries a person from earthly time to heavenly time?

KS

***************************************************************************

From: Soo Ching Pin
Sent: 05 October 2007 15:16 PM
Subject: Re: For CP: Death/ Life

KS

I wouldn't know much about eternity and how time is measured then.
We can only speculate.

CP

***************************************************************************

From: Cheah Keat Swee
Sent: 05 October 2007 05:57 PM
Subject: For CP: Death/ Life

CP,

Perhaps I should rephrase. Would you agree that "eternity" is probably not a function of time?

KS

***************************************************************************

From: Soo Ching Pin
Sent: 06 October 2007 10:09 AM
Subject: For CP: Death/ Life

Yeah, time would probably be meaningless in eternity.

CP

***************************************************************************

From: Cheah Keat Swee
Sent: 06 October 2007 07:41 PM
Subject: For CP: Death/ Life

CP,

You would then agree that in Christianity, sinners consigned eternally to hell
would not be punished for a long time; they would be punished outside time, right?

Conversely, you would agree that good people who find salvation also live
in the same region where clocks never tick, right?

KS

***************************************************************************

From: Soo Ching Pin
Sent: 07 October 2007 09:47 AM
Subject: For CP: Death/ Life

KS,

What you say sounds plausible, although we are so used to living in time that it is hard to imagine a world without time.
CP

***************************************************************************

From: Cheah Keat Swee
Sent: 07 October 2007 10:09 AM
Subject: For CP: Death/ Life

CP,

In your words, "..we are so used to living in time...” Would you then agree that it is the illusion of time that tells us we are shooting a straight line from birth to death, when in fact we could be inside a frothy bubble let loose by eternity?

KS

***************************************************************************

From: Soo Ching Pin
Sent: 08 October 2007 07:01 PM
Subject: Time and Life

Is time an illusion? Only human beings keep time. The rest of the animals
appear to have no way of keeping time.

CP

***************************************************************************

From: Soo Ching Pin
Sent: 08 October 2007 07:08 PM
Subject: Re: Time and Life

Here's an interesting introduction from the Wikipedia article on time:
There are two distinct views on the meaning of the word time.One view is that time is part of the fundamental structure of the universe, a dimension in which events occur in sequence, and time itself is something that can be measured. This is the realist's view, to which Sir Isaac Newton subscribed, and hence is sometimes referred to as Newtonian time.

A contrasting view is that time is part of the fundamental human intellectual structure (together with space and number) within which we sequence events, quantify the duration of events and the intervals between them, and compare the motions of objects. In this second view, time does not refer to any kind of entity that "flows", that objects "move through", or that is a "container" for events. This view is in the tradition of Gottfried Leibniz and Immanuel Kant, in which time, rather than being an objective thing to be measured, is part of the measuring system used by humans.

***************************************************************************

From: Cheah Keat Swee
Sent: 9 October 2007 01:34 AM
Subject: Time and Life

CP,

Since you have digressed to animals, let me give you an example of an illusion
created by time.

The inner clock of the brain measures external events. The human brain ticks
fast enough to allow us to sense events that last only a few thousandths of a second (a darting mosquito perhaps?) but that of a snail clicks so slow that it takes 5 seconds before an event passes and a new one appears. Imagine this……in those 5 seconds you could pick up and move the snail 10 feet. To the snail it would appear that it had been teleported through space!

KS

P/S

Our Shih Tzu wakes me up at 7.35 every morning. You are telling me animals have no way of keeping time? Maybe you are right……..Prince Cheah is human but only
looks like dog!

***************************************************************************

From: Cheah Keat Swee
Sent: 10 October 2007 03:28 AM
Subject: Time and Life/Re: For CP. Death/Life

Hi CP,

Bringing you back to the subject at hand; "Life Begins With Death"I gather you generally agree that "time" would be meaningless in "eternity". In other words, eternity is not a function of time.

Would you agree then that the word "afterlife" is a misnomer? This being because our ordinary sense of time (Newtonian time) has no relevance to what comes "after". Indeed the very word, "after" implies that time hasn't changed at the moment of death i.e. as I mentioned earlier that it still moves in a straight line (linear time), carrying a person from earthly time to heavenly time.

We are treading on the Gottfried Leibniz/Kant model here.

KS

P/S

Since we referred to Wikipedia, this is also mentioned about "time":

"In physics, time and space are considered fundamental quantities (i.e. they
cannot be defined in terms of other quantities because other quantities - such
as velocity, force, energy, etc - are already defined in terms of them). Thus
the only definition possible is an operational one, in which time is defined by
the process of measurement and by the units chosen."

***************************************************************************

From: Soo Ching Pin
Sent: 10 October 2007 12:56 PM
Subject: Time and Life/Re: For CP. Death/Life

KS,

If by "afterlife" we mean what happens to you after you die, I don't see why it should be a misnomer. Can you think of a better word to describe it? Think of a novel. In its printed form it is there "all at once" on your table.

Yet to the characters in the novel it seems as if they are experiencing linear time which takes them from Chapter 1 of the novel to the last chapter. If the author, having finished this novel, decides to come up with a sequel, the sequel would then be practically an "afterlife" to the first novel.

CP

***************************************************************************

From: Cheah Keat Swee
Sent: 10 October 2007 03:39 PM
Subject: Time and Life/Re: For CP. Death/Life

CP,

I meant misnomer in the sense of Death/Life discussion and the concept of time. I had wanted to draw you to a concept that "eternity is now" and that you do not have to wait until after the "End of Days" and Judgment Day. I reiterate that eternity is not a function of time.

Maybe we should now move to the concept of Death per se.

Can we agree on the following parameters?
1. Death replaces time with timelessness.
2. Death stretches the boundaries of space to infinity.
3. Death reveals the source of life.
4. Death reveals the underlying intelligence that organizes and sustains creation. (My personal beliefs precludes me from using the word, "God")

KS

***************************************************************************

From: Soo Ching Pin
Sent: 11 October 2007 11:22 AM
Subject: Time and Life/Re: For CP. Death/Life

KS,

Agreed on parameters 1-4. I also agree that "eternity is now" and we don't
have to wait until judgment day. However while we are alive on earth we
are still bound by time and we will be released from time only after we die.

CP

***************************************************************************

From: Cheah Keat Swee
Sent: 11 October 2007 11:52 PM
Subject: Time and Life/Re: For CP. Death/Life

CP,

Might I also add another parameter (call it number 5) –

5. Death brings a new way of knowing that lies beyond the reach of the five senses.

KS

***************************************************************************

From: Soo Ching Pin
Sent: 12 October 2007 09:24 AM
Subject: Time and Life/Re: For CP. Death/Life

No lah, being dead means all your five senses have shut down and you won't know
anything until you are resurrected at the last day/judgment day.

You may sleep for a long time but you won't know the passage of time.

CP

***************************************************************************

From: Cheah Keat Swee
Sent: 12 October 2007 11:22 AM
Subject: Time and Life/Re: For CP. Death/Life

CP,

There was of course a reason why I included No. 5 after the fact; I did not expect you to agree. Could you please elaborate on your last reply? Do you mean, by your Christian beliefs this “limbo” you refer to is unavoidable before perhaps The Rapture?

How can this be congruent with your agreement that “eternity” is now. Do the heathen get condemned to the “eternity” of Hell immediately upon death or do they “sleep” in a different place?

KS

***************************************************************************

From: Soo Ching Pin
Sent: 12 October 2007 11:32 AM
Subject: Time and Life/Re: For CP. Death/Life

KS,

I agreed that "eternity is now" because we Christians believe that eternal life begins once we have accepted Christ. We do not have to wait until after we die. This eternal life begins while we are still alive, and after we die it continues into eternity. Those who die will all sleep until the last day/judgment day.

CP

***************************************************************************

From: Nicholas Ong
Sent: 16 October 2007 13:18 PM
Subject: Time and Life/Re: For CP. Death/Life

Hello CP,

Need your help, can you tell me where did you get this info from?

Nic

***************************************************************************

From: Cheah Keat Swee
Sent: 12 October 2007 15:14 PM
Subject: Time and Life/Re: For CP. Death/Life

CP,

You are telling me now that you meant the symbolic meaning of eternity throughout this discussion? I was not referring to “eternal life”. Anyway, let’s cut to the chase; your objective is to end up in Heaven for eternity right? What do you think the Kingdom of Heaven would be like?

The Old Testament seems to promise a kingdom in a literal sense; God even covenants with the prophets and patriarchs they will rule the earth in His name. Jesus came and changed all that right?

KS

**************************************************************************

From: Soo Ching Pin
Sent: 15 October 2007 16:33
Subject: Re: For CP: Death/ Life

Nic,

The Bible tells us that the dead do not know anything, among other things. You can find more details at: http://www.worldslastchance.com/chapter108.php


KS,

Jesus did not come to do away with the Law and the Prophets. He said so himself in Matthew 5:17 if I remember correctly. His Sermon on the Mount in chapters 5 to 7 of Matthew is a description of what Christians ought to be in the Kingdom of heaven here and now. Here I must confess my own shortcomings in trying to live this Sermon on the Mount.

Elsewhere, in Matthew 13 and other places, Jesus tells some parables to illustrate what the KIngdom of Heaven is like. When Jesus comes again he will raise up Christians to reign together with Him on earth. Then there will be a literal KIngdom of heaven on earth.

CP

**************************************************************************

From: Cheah Keat Swee

Sent: 16 October 2007 10:54 AM

Subject: Time and Life/Re: For CP. Death/Life


CP,

The WLC site looks like a Christian conspiracy theorists site. Certainly does make for a wonder of wonders. Chapter 108 makes the dead sound so much like zombies waiting to be revived. There seems to be a preoccupation with materialism; the body. What about the soul?

Would you agree that there are different schools of thought regarding “a literal KIngdom of heaven on earth”? That Christianity today is stuck in literal images-such as heaven that is literally a place?

Christians end up arguing fiercely over an imaginary landscape far removed from Jesus’ actual teaching. Would you agree that Jesus can be credited with making the revolutionary shift of heaven from this world to the next? After all, by Jesus’ conception, Heaven is:

* Present – an inward experience that can be felt by the righteous
* Future – returning home to be with God (Judgment Day)
* Universal – an eternal abode beyond birth and death; beyond Creation
* Personal – found “within you”

In the Old Testament, the passport (righteousness in the eyes of Jehovah?) across seemed to be a matter of ritual, obeying priests, and divine commandments. If one looks carefully at the above 4 points, can it be construed that Jesus actually built a bridge to the soul? Could he be exhorting every person to find his way across?! Did Jesus effectively “internalize” the whole process; making each individual accountable?

KS

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From: Nicholas Ong
Sent: 12 October 2007 14:05 PM
Subject: Time and Life/Re: For CP. Death/Life

CP,

Thanks for the reference.

I’m very curious on how did these people (during biblical times) know that this “Intermediate State” exists. I don’t want to sound rude but it appears to me as another theory created out of thin air.

Maybe we ought to call Criss Angel the messiah or son of god, instead of son of devil.

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From: Cheah Keat Swee
Sent: 16 October 2007 1:29 PM
Subject: Time and Life/Re: For CP. Death/Life

CP,

Consider the “In the World - But Not of the World” message by Jesus (John 15:19, John 17:14, James 1:27, John 2:15, James 4:4) that has Christendom interpreting in a myriad of often divergent ways. Could it be that Jesus is actually giving a clue about the kingdom of heaven within?

KS

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From: Soo Ching Pin

Sent: 16 October 2007 15:43

Subject: Re: For CP: Death/ Life

KS,

Yes, there are different schools of thought within Christianity, not just about a literal Kingdom of Heaven, but about a lot of other things as well, some of which may be considered trivial. That is partly why there are so many denominations in Christendom.

Jesus did say somewhere that the Kingdom of God is within you. If I find the reference I'll get back to you on that.

You have done a good summary of Jesus' thoughts about heaven, in that it is both present and future, both universal and personal.

We are indeed individually accountable for our own actions. In the Old Testament, Ezekiel tells us that the soul who sins is the one who will die (Ezekiel 18:4, 20). In the New Testament we find Paul saying that we will be accountable for our works, e.g. in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15.

CP

**************************************************************************

From: Cheah Keat Swee

Sent: 16 October 2007 22:23 PM

Subject: Time and Life/Re: For CP. Death/Life

CP,

Let me share a thought with you.

The notion of heaven keeps things human and that is one reason the notion has survived so long. Humans seek the powerful reassurance that there is a place to go after we die, receiving our just rewards and rest from our labors. What if I was to say that every level of existence is actually a state of awareness and was formed in consciousness? In other words death is merely a shift in awareness. What if death is all just a state of mind? Can you ever remember not being alive? Could it be because you have always been alive?

“The kingdom of god/heaven is within you”? That’s precisely it; the knowledge associated with the riddle of life and death is not external to the knower but woven inside consciousness. Conversely, anyone can come up with first hand knowledge and the reason why we have not is because we do not contact the deepest part of ourselves; the soul!

The use of the word soul differs in meaning from the Christian one. This is where you and I will diverge.

KS

**************************************************************************

From: Soo Ching Pin
Sent: 19 October 2007 09:35 AM
Subject: Re: For CP: Death/ Life

KS

It is true we can't remember not being alive. Neither can we remember the time in our mothers' wombs, or the experience of being born. Yet we accept our mothers' stories about giving birth to us. We don't remember the first few years of life either. That doesn't mean all these things never happened. Our memories are not infallible, you see.

This kind of argument reminds me about the boy who complained to his parents that his history teacher expected him to remember things that happened before he was born.

CP

**************************************************************************

From: Cheah Keat Swee
Sent: 19 October 2007 12:57 PM
Subject: Time and Life/Re: For CP. Death/Life

CP,

Can we now talk about Satan (Hell) the antithesis of God (Heaven)? Would you agree that mankind has largely moved beyond Satan? After all we have had about a century of secularism behind us (though communism is floundering) despite religious literalists.

What do you think if I were to say that to blame Satan for all things evil reflects our refusal to take responsibility for our afterlife?

Whatever its faults, secular culture promotes therapy, open-minded dialogue in areas considered taboo, discourages superstition and encourages people to take responsibility over their own destinies; all these speak of tremendous growth in consciousness, don’t you think?

As consciousness evolves, won’t Satan become increasingly unreal?

KS

**************************************************************************

From: Soo Ching Pin

Sent: 19 October 2007 14:47 PM

Subject: Re: For CP: Death/ Life

KS

I agree that there isn't much mention of Satan in the secular writings which I have read. In the Genesis account when God caught Adam and Eve after they had eaten the forbidden fruit, the man blamed his wife, and the wife blamed the serpent, who was the representation of Satan, i.e. Satan had appeared to Eve in the form of a serpent. Ever since then mankind has always tried to find other people to blame when things go wrong. It is true that Satan tempts us to sin, but we can choose to say yes or no to the temptation. So we are still responsible for our afterlife.

CP

*****************************************************************************

From: Mike Naser
Sent: 19 October 2007 15:20 PM
Subject: Re: For CP: Death/ Life


CP,

When God's talking snake manifested itself as Satan, who created Satan or he/she was or is a separate entity?

How could there be Adam and Eve when our first mother was an African? Adam and Eve were a myth or what scholars called mythos - embellishments for the weak and gullible - as against logos - scientific, rational and empirical.

You cannot assume that the people in the past were (more or less) like us, but in fact their spiritual lives were rather different.

There is no Satan either. Its metaphorical for immorality.

We simply have to extricate ourselves from primitiveness. If we have strength of character and know good from bad, we don't need mythos to be our NEP.


**************************************************************************

From: Nic Ong

Sent: 20 October 2007 00:41 AM

Subject: Re: For CP: Death/ Life

KS, CP,

Eh... this is like a wife who keeps sending sexy babes to tempt her hubby and expect him not to fall for it. Do we blame the husband or the wife when he finally takes the bait?

If god knew the future, he would know Eve will fall. (What kind of free choice was that?) Then he won’t be allowing dear serpent to anywhere near them. Also, If he knew Lucifer would turn against him, he shouldn’t even created satan.

By the same token, he knew and made me an atheist before I was even born, he knew all that. So I’m destined to die, sleep and wake up in hell? Great job, father.


**************************************************************************

From: Cheah Keat Swee
Sent: 20 October 2007 09:41 AM
Subject: Re: For CP. Death/Life

CP,

That was not the context in which I was talking about Satan but never mind.

I find what you said: “Ever since then mankind has always tried to find other people to blame when things go wrong. It is true that Satan tempts us to sin, but we can choose to say yes or no to the temptation. So we are still responsible for our afterlife” difficult to comprehend. Can you understand why it seems like double talking to me? Why does mankind need to search anymore for people to blame; can’t they just pin the tail on the “Satan donkey”?

Evil, however you define it remains even after Satan has gone the way of the ancient gods of Mount Olympus that once served to explain every natural phenomenon; relegated to history. Like the Greek Gods, Satan has outlived his usefulness.

In that sense, I tend to agree with Mike’s statement; “Satan is metaphorical for immorality”.

I say this because we have the power to make Satan grow or diminish and more crucially, we have the power to make Satan real or unreal!

As I said earlier, “As consciousness evolves, Satan will become more unreal” and indeed I think many Christians are beginning to remove Satan from their psyche. The phrase, “The Devil made me do it” just does not cut it anymore.


KS

**************************************************************************

From: Cheah Keat Swee
Sent: 23 October 2007 12:06 AM
Subject: Re: For CP. Death/Life

CP are you still in the conversation?

KS

**************************************************************************

From: Soo Ching Pin
Sent: 23 October 2007 18:14 PM
Subject: Re: For CP: Death/ Life

KS, Nic, Mike

I think we have come to the point where we must agree to disagree.
To each his own.

CP

**************************************************************************

From: Cheah Keat Swee
Sent: 23 October 2007 12:06 AM
Subject: Re: For CP. Death/Life

CP,

Thanks for the conversation.

KS

Sunday Brunch - Restaurant Review.

Suet Fun and Sheka came over the house yesterday at 3.00 pm. A bottle of red, a quarter liter of Bombay Sapphire, and half of Jeannie's last pack of Virginia Slims later, Sheka reminded me about an old message posted in the Tigers EGroup about Tiger Mike's "Restaurant". Sheka had never met Jeannie before and the posting was the first time he had noticed Jeannie's name mentioned. The following is that posting dated 3rd October, 2005:


3rd, October 2005

Guys,

The wife and I went to a quaint restaurant today. Located somewhere between KL and Klang, it can be rather difficult to locate if you do not have explicit directions. We arrived there at 12.30 pm and stayed till about 9.15 pm. You can guess this is no ordinary place.

We were greeted at the door by the chef himself and with almost telepathic perception served up Famous Grouse soda for yours truly and a quick Pepsi for Jeannie.

The place itself was immaculately clean with hardly a piece of furniture not in its right place and not a speck of dirt to the touch. The distinguished lady boss was at hand to make us feel most welcomed while the chef put finishing touches to the first course that was to ensue. Another whiskey later, we were presented with a personalized “menu of the day” which really made us feel honored to be customers for the day. It was obvious that great detail was put into the preparation of the menu and that set the anticipation for the meal that was to come. There was even a little commemoration in the menu card that really bowled me over! I will take you through the menu as we progress!

The meal started with piping hot miso soup which was quickly consumed with gusto together with a salad of fresh crunchy greens with Japanese dressing; a heady mix of French and oriental flavors! This was immediately followed by imported mussels on a half shell garnished with herbed garlic butter and lightly toasted. The accompanying bottle of Wolfblass Red complemented the mussels perfectly even though a philistine like me was always told perhaps a chardonnay was more appropriate. Compliments to the chef who obviously knew his craft!

Next came the Lime Sorbet which I am told was to cleanse the mouth of any after-taste from the entrées. The chef was gracious enough to bring out a liqueur from his private collection that added a zing to the already tangy lime sorbet but the desired effect was amazing.

What was truly puzzling is, all this while the chef and the lady boss joined us for the meal and as far as I could see there was no one else in the kitchen! The chef just went into the kitchen and brought out his creations as if he materialized them from thin air! He was in fact very much like Jaime Oliver! He made everything seem so simple.

The main course was to me the piece de resistance…..a generous portion of custom done, pan seared to perfection, rib eye (I think it was) accompanied by half a baked potato, shitake mushrooms and snow peas. The carnivore in me polished off that in no time. Jeannie was served three rather large portions of lamb chops that had been pre-stripped of fat and was done just the way she liked it. Lady boss had pan seared salmon steak and yet there was no one else in the kitchen; amazing. By then we were on the second bottle of red.

Dessert of the day was Haagen-Daz raspberry ice-cream on a bed of canned mix fruits. Certainly Haagen-Daz needs no introductions. This meal was not over by far! Expresso made before your eyes! Luigi Lavazza coffee no less; a brand which dates back to 1895 in Turin, Italy.

Since we were the only customers at the time, and it was after all a quiet Sunday no one was pushed for time. Out came the cheese board and crackers….and port! There was a variety of mild cheeses; I could only recognize the camembert, feta, and cheddar among them and the chef did not bring out his favored blue cheese for fear of sending us out the door immediately! This was followed by another bottle of red.

You would think that was the end. We were real stuffed by then! The thing which made the whole afternoon all the more enjoyable was the company. That to us was the highlight of the day. We were enthralled by the stories and history that were the main topics of conversation that time just rolled by unnoticed.

Before the day was over, Jeannie had a pleasant surprise. Caviar which is a favorite of hers was served with the fourth bottle of wine. We were told the establishment had run out of a house specialty; an occasional availability of foie gras (depending on availability of goose liver) or available most times, chicken liver pate. That was enough to set us thinking of the next visit! Herein lies the cost of the whole wonderful meal.

How much did the whole meal cost? Nothing!! Nothing in pecuniary terms anyway! Well, the agonizing wait for the next available booking is the price one has to pay and that could be never! I signed off the menu card with, “Thanks for the once in a lifetime experience”……..you know why? If there is a second invite, it will never be the same as the marvel of the first time.

THANK YOU VERY, VERY MUCH MIKE NASER AND FAZILLAH TAIB. As Jeannie rightly put it; “It was better than sex, maaaann!!!”

"How do I love thee? Let me count the ways..."

by Elizabeth Barrett Browning (1806-1861)

How do I love thee? Let me count the ways.

I love thee to the depth and breadth and height

My soul can reach, when feeling out of sight

For the ends of Being and ideal Grace.

I love thee to the level of everyday's

Most quiet need, by sun and candle-light.

I love thee freely, as men strive for Right;

I love thee purely, as they turn from Praise.

I love thee with a passion put to use

In my old griefs, and with my childhood's faith.

I love thee with a love I seemed to lose

With my lost saints, --- I love thee with the breath,

Smiles, tears, of all my life! --- and, if God choose,

I shall but love thee better after death.

My Two Boys

I woke up this morning to this scene in the hall. JJ must have fallen asleep on the sofa the previous night but how Prince Cheah ended up sleeping in the same position, on his Mummy's chair is the marvel of Prince. He has of course done this before.

It's South Africa versus England

After more than five gruelling weeks of intense rugby, who could have predicted that 2 teams from Group A would filter through to the Final? The Springboks after having blanked England 36-0 in the Group Stage joined their rivals in the Final by defeating the Argentina Pumas, 37-13.

Although past record would count for nothing in a Final, I still I think the Boks will win. The English will have more fire in their bellies but the Boks have the edge in terms of talent. It should be an absorbing contest and my prediction is the margin will not be more than 7 points. However, my predictions in this World Cup have been anything but spot on.

I think the battle will be won or lost in the forwards and both sets are well matched. I watched the South Africa vs Argentina semi-final this morning and the talents of flying winger Bryan Habana were on full display. He is the young version of his opposition number, the inspiring Jason Robinson and it will be an interesting contest. Habana will make the difference in the Final.

Kickers Jonny Wilkinson and Percy Montgomery should cancel each other out though the side that gives away too many penalties will pay the price.

As reigning World Cup champion, England was certainly not the best team in the world over the last four years. An England victory this weekend would not be good for the Rugby World Cup as a competition.

If England does win, it will mean the cementing of the Legend of Jonny Wilkinson. It will be the stuff of rugby folklore and no other player today is more deserving than Wilkinson. Over the last decade, he has been an impeccable role model for Youth the world over.

A Malaysian Malaysia Hari Raya At Captain Azmi's

Since most of my friends balik kampung for Raya, I thought it would be a good time to catch up with some reading and some stuff around the house this holiday weekend. It is now Sunday night and it seemed this weekend flew past with the winds that brought the heavy rains since Friday.

Nevertheless, the invitation by Old Tiger Capt. Azmi to his Hari Raya gathering on Saturday night for traditional Penang Asam Laksa was most welcomed.

A few of us (Harjit, Liz, Suet Fun) decided it best to car pool and special thanks go to Baii’s better half, Susan for being the designated driver for the evening. We all fitted nicely in their monstrous Ssangyong Stavic.

Azmi, Hamisah and their kids are wonderful hosts and apart from our Old Edwardian gang, the others present were close neighbours. The other times I had attended parties at Azmi's were at their weekend condo in Bandar Utama.

I knew Azmi's place was being renovated in time for his daughter's wedding, more than 3 months back’s and we were very impressed with what he has done with it; a contemporary Melayu concept very tastefully done. Much of the wooden features including furniture were refurbished from old pieces collected from some small towns. One could almost imagine P. Ramlee sitting on one of the chairs in the wooden lanai. Not bad for a budak kampong from Tepin!

Liz's Bombay Sapphire gin, bitter lemon, and tonic concoction made for a potent evening but the highlight was Hamisah’s laksa which must be one of the best around! My son JJ would certainly agree - he had 6 helpings and was decked out on Azmi’s sofa at 2.00 am!

We now know what Azmi will be doing after MAS has had enough of him….he will start a new career/hobby as an interior designer.

Brought the wrong camera…photos did not turn out right.

World Cup Hoodoo

Some things seem not to change! The All Blacks failed again to convert world rugby dominance into World Cup glory. This time they were outdone again by the French (18-20) in a match reminicence of the 1999 World Cup semi-final when the French came back from 10-24 down and in "30 minutes of madness" saw them win 43-31!

Personally, I have not been posting on the 2007 RWC after the initial few games because I suspected this would happen. Credit to the French defence though for putting up a great show but this loss was mainly due to the All Blacks giving away the game by not playing to their own strengths.

Though it was a definite forward pass that resulted in the French winning-try, All Blacks coach Graham Henry must take the blame for putting up a line-up that seem to give the French too much respect.

With this loss, my interest in the 2007 RWC comes to an end. France now plays England in one semi-final and it looks like another Northern Hemisphere versus Southern Hemisphere final. The Springboks should get through from the other half and are now favorites for the title but then again........

Trying To Make Sense Of It All (II)

Read this book last week after picking it out from the shelves in Kinokuniya. It has been about 30 years since I read Dr Raymond Moody's "Life After Life" and I must say, the subject of "what lies after" has been examined with so much more depth and width that it makes Moody's ground breaking book seem like kindergarten material.

Dr Michael Newton's study and findings are not from NDE cases (near death experience) but from hypnosis techniques that reach into the supersubconscious level of subjects. The presentation of his conclusions are well laid out; taking the reader through 29 case studies, each a source of postulations and its own rationalization which collectively prescribe a plausible exemplar of the existence, nature and quest of the soul. The title of the book is apt in that we are shown why in many ways the "journey" is both the mission and the reason for existence, of souls.

This book certainly adds to my growing knowledge on the subject. Trying to make sense of it all drives my search through the empirical, the esoteric and the philosophical until I can finally blog my own conclusions here. I have also just picked up the second book on the subject by the same author. "Destiny of Souls" should be another interesting read.