This thread is ongoing in my Edwardian_Tigers EGroup.----- Original Message ----From: Nicholas ONG
Sent: Saturday, 27 October 2007 11:16:08
Subject: RE: For CP. What Dreams May Come
Suet,
Yes, you’re right, for everything that we debated about - before & after, what we really need & have to live is, now.
(eh.. that will actually bring me back to atheism….ha!) Good weekend.
nic
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From: Edwardian_Tigers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Edwardian_Tigers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Suet Fun Liew
Sent: 29 October 2007 09:11
To: Edwardian_Tigers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Whatever you conceive Him to be, or not
Nic
Ah...a mind-bending subject-God, or not. Wars have been fought, dinners have been left cold, gloves-off polemics exchanged for all eternity. In my limited experience, no one has ever been able to persuade another to agree amicably, except when they embrace, unequivocally, the same faith. However, it makes for a riveting discussion. :)
If there's a god, he will be highly amused that we labour so hard, so long to disagree on his existence, or his nature.
If there's no god, well, its more mental masturbation or stubborn persistence to convince everyone we are right.
All this, while life passes by and we play at god by creating right-angled watermelons and black tomato sauce. Sum total of years of evolution.
Have a great week,
Suet
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SF,
I do not think anyone was preaching here and as CP put it, “to each his own”. What I cannot understand was his reluctance to engage in further “conversation” as if the literal Christian abhors logic. Honestly, I was and am searching; mental masturbation perhaps. I was not trying to convince anyone otherwise.
Since CP is the closest thing here to an authority on Christianity (I know Liz goes to church too) I wanted to get a perspective. Actually, CP’s conversation was essentially with Deepak Chopra! I was comparing two schools (Hindu/Christian) of thought about mortality.
This country would be a better place if more of us can talk openly about our beliefs and non-beliefs, rather than just pay lip service to our so called multi-cultural and multi-religious society and co-existence. Take Islam for instance, if most Muslims here think it is sacrilegious for a non-Muslim to discuss Islam, why was there an impressive array of local Islamic intelligentsia hanging on to every word that came out of Karen Armstrong’s mouth recently. I can only conclude that they would not think so.
Hidup Bangsa Malaysia!
KS
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From: Edwardian_Tigers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Edwardian_Tigers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Suet Fun Liew
Sent: 29 October 2007 10:54To: Edwardian_Tigers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Whatever you conceive Him to be, or not
KS
I have been following the discussion with keen interest, and understand your thread. My personal opinion is that no matter how many books we read, no matter who we listen to, the answer is in our hearts. Whoever created us knew what he was doing, because I believe we have a built-in capacity to recognise good and bad, and understand right and wrong. When I say heart, I speak not merely about emotions, but a kind of heightened awareness of ourselves and the world around us. When we respond at that level, without the "domestication" of teaching, maybe we find the kernel of our existence. Maybe.
I must confess that I generally distrust organised religion and thought, believing that our own intellectual take is often flawed by our personal prejudices and predilection. That our own stabs at intellectualizing the nature of life and the universe may often be shrouded by our personal motives, sometimes at a sub-conscious level, sometimes on a very conscious, deliberate level.
As for bangsa Malaysia, as long as there is institutionalised segregation, I don't believe its evolution is possible. Its lip service and feel good, but the walls keep growing."The best lack all convictions, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity"
Suet
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SF,
I think any reflection on religious/spiritual/life cannot and should not be divorced from personal prejudices, predilection and motives. As the person doing the reflecting, continuous introspection is the critical for me. I agree that “our own stabs at intellectualizing the nature of life and the universe may often be shrouded by our personal motives” and this is always at the back of my mind; I try to be consciously aware even of the sub-conscious and of course the deliberate. Introspection.
The walls of institutionalized segregation can only be torn down by those who “benefit” from it. I think what we are witnessing with the “growing walls” is utter paranoia and panic in the face of unexpected public reactions to matters that were once consider sacred or taboo. Feel good for whom? It can only get worse before it can get better. Let’s hope it would not be too late for the nation.
KS
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KS
In some ways I am an optimist, in some ways a pessimist. I hope that what you say is true because like you, I hope for Bangsa Malaysia to evolve. I hope that what you say is true, that things get worse before they get better. I hope that our beloved, splendid country can rise to its feet and realise that the greatest gift it possesses is the wondrous diversity of its people. You know I spent the last few months walking through paddy fields, falling into muddy puddles, bathing in bathrooms without doors and sleeping in huts. In that passage, the people I spoke to left me feeling incredulous and awed. They were getting on with their lives, doing the best they can and leaving self-analysis behind. They were dirt poor but dignified. They embraced us, for most part, with open arms, open hearts.
I think I became more pessimistic returning to our city. Bearing the false pride of the Twin Towers and a false sense of progress (do the neighbours speak to each other?) and humanity (quick, cut from fast lane to the exit in 3 metres), we do not know that one hour out of Miri there is no electricity and running water, the roads turn into a muddy river after one heavy downpour and somewhere in Tenom Sabah, people are sitting on pushcarts, pushing themselves six miles home on a railway track as we sip our single malt whiskeys and discuss Bangsa Malaysia.
Suet
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Dear Suet Fun,
Bangsa Malaysia can only be achieved by a few like-minded people living in a limited universe. It will never come to Malaysia for forever coz the Malays will eventually be 90 % of the population in 50 - 100 years with the help of Indon migrants.
What is immediate is the concept of the "Political Community". It means if Ah Swee, Sugumaran and Awang are in New York and a Qwailoh says, "Your Country is shit". The instantaneous anger and non-approbation by the three Malaysians are the manifestation of the political community.
This is a long study of Clifford Geetz's "Primordial Sentiments" and the implications therefrom.
If you go to the boondocks, as it were, you are enthralled by the "difference", its really a temporary aberration. I lived in the bush almost all my life, vainglory aside, I studied their culture, language, sanguinity,risked my life with them and shamanism. You must identify where are they on the continuum of socio-cultural evolution beginning with the simple agrarian society members to some of us at the end of the continuum - the industrial IT society members. The mindset of each society is decisive upon the difference. You have to bring to bear the variables of social anthropology - human species - and keep as the guidance for the perplexed.
Mike
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Here’s my thought, when things get worse, there are only 4 possible scenarios will follow through, either it will turn worse (worst??), or so bad that you’ll die, or you recover (ideal but what’s the likelihood?) or you are stuck in perpetual suffering waiting for the worst to be over. LOL!
Cakap kosong lah…
nic
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Thanks Mike. You continue to teach us. Your take on “conceptual framework” some time ago still echoes.
Ah Swee
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Dear Mike
Appreciate the point of view.:)
I must admit I am ignorant of the finer points of anthropology and sociology, and I must say that my experience is purely humanistic. I do not doubt that life will change for these societies; in Loagan Bunut, Rumah Kajan Sigeh Astro already holds the tribe enthralled, despite the lack of electricity. The RM 50 diesel per night generator keeps the cartoons and B-grade movies coming. They're all making a beeline to the other end of the continuum where we languish :), discussing God, our dogs, perplexity and the quality of mercy, which is strained indeed.
Salut... :)
Suet
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