This "conversation" is in my Yahoo E-Group for ex-students of King Edward VII School, Taiping. Ching Pin, 44 is single and a staunch Christian. He is currently working as an administrator in a church in Ampang, I think. At the time of posting, the chat is on-going.***********************************************************************************
From: Cheah Keat Swee
Sent: 04 October 2007 11:07 AM
Subject: For CP: Death/ Life
CP,
Just for you. What would you write if asked for your comments about the statement:
"Life Begins with Death"?
KS
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From: Soo Ching Pin
Sent: 04 October 2007 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: For CP: Death/ Life
KS,
We all spent about 9 months in our mothers' wombs. Our births put an end to that, and ushered us into a whole new life outside the womb.
In the same way, death may be the end of our earthly existence, but it could also be a doorway to a new existence in eternity.
In that sense it would be the beginning of a new life.
CP
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From: Cheah Keat Swee
Sent: 05 October 2007 11:56 AM
Subject: Re: For CP: Death/ Life
Dear CP,
Following up on the topic; I would like to ask you about your statement "death… could also be a doorway to a new existence in eternity."
Do you reckon eternity is measured in linear time? Sort of like at the moment of death, it carries a person from earthly time to heavenly time?
KS
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From: Soo Ching Pin
Sent: 05 October 2007 15:16 PM
Subject: Re: For CP: Death/ Life
KS
I wouldn't know much about eternity and how time is measured then.
We can only speculate.
CP
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From: Cheah Keat Swee
Sent: 05 October 2007 05:57 PM
Subject: For CP: Death/ Life
CP,
Perhaps I should rephrase. Would you agree that "eternity" is probably not a function of time?
KS
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From: Soo Ching Pin
Sent: 06 October 2007 10:09 AM
Subject: For CP: Death/ Life
Yeah, time would probably be meaningless in eternity.
CP
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From: Cheah Keat Swee
Sent: 06 October 2007 07:41 PM
Subject: For CP: Death/ Life
CP,
You would then agree that in Christianity, sinners consigned eternally to hell
would not be punished for a long time; they would be punished outside time, right?
Conversely, you would agree that good people who find salvation also live
in the same region where clocks never tick, right?
KS
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From: Soo Ching Pin
Sent: 07 October 2007 09:47 AM
Subject: For CP: Death/ Life
KS,
What you say sounds plausible, although we are so used to living in time that it is hard to imagine a world without time.
CP
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From: Cheah Keat Swee
Sent: 07 October 2007 10:09 AM
Subject: For CP: Death/ Life
CP,
In your words, "..we are so used to living in time...” Would you then agree that it is the illusion of time that tells us we are shooting a straight line from birth to death, when in fact we could be inside a frothy bubble let loose by eternity?
KS
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From: Soo Ching Pin
Sent: 08 October 2007 07:01 PM
Subject: Time and Life
Is time an illusion? Only human beings keep time. The rest of the animals
appear to have no way of keeping time.
CP
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From: Soo Ching Pin
Sent: 08 October 2007 07:08 PM
Subject: Re: Time and Life
Here's an interesting introduction from the Wikipedia article on time:
There are two distinct views on the meaning of the word time.One view is that time is part of the fundamental structure of the universe, a dimension in which events occur in sequence, and time itself is something that can be measured. This is the realist's view, to which Sir Isaac Newton subscribed, and hence is sometimes referred to as Newtonian time.
A contrasting view is that time is part of the fundamental human intellectual structure (together with space and number) within which we sequence events, quantify the duration of events and the intervals between them, and compare the motions of objects. In this second view, time does not refer to any kind of entity that "flows", that objects "move through", or that is a "container" for events. This view is in the tradition of Gottfried Leibniz and Immanuel Kant, in which time, rather than being an objective thing to be measured, is part of the measuring system used by humans.
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From: Cheah Keat Swee
Sent: 9 October 2007 01:34 AM
Subject: Time and Life
CP,
Since you have digressed to animals, let me give you an example of an illusion
created by time.
The inner clock of the brain measures external events. The human brain ticks
fast enough to allow us to sense events that last only a few thousandths of a second (a darting mosquito perhaps?) but that of a snail clicks so slow that it takes 5 seconds before an event passes and a new one appears. Imagine this……in those 5 seconds you could pick up and move the snail 10 feet. To the snail it would appear that it had been teleported through space!
KS
P/S
Our Shih Tzu wakes me up at 7.35 every morning. You are telling me animals have no way of keeping time? Maybe you are right……..Prince Cheah is human but only
looks like dog!
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From: Cheah Keat Swee
Sent: 10 October 2007 03:28 AM
Subject: Time and Life/Re: For CP. Death/Life
Hi CP,
Bringing you back to the subject at hand; "Life Begins With Death"I gather you generally agree that "time" would be meaningless in "eternity". In other words, eternity is not a function of time.
Would you agree then that the word "afterlife" is a misnomer? This being because our ordinary sense of time (Newtonian time) has no relevance to what comes "after". Indeed the very word, "after" implies that time hasn't changed at the moment of death i.e. as I mentioned earlier that it still moves in a straight line (linear time), carrying a person from earthly time to heavenly time.
We are treading on the Gottfried Leibniz/Kant model here.
KS
P/S
Since we referred to Wikipedia, this is also mentioned about "time":
"In physics, time and space are considered fundamental quantities (i.e. they
cannot be defined in terms of other quantities because other quantities - such
as velocity, force, energy, etc - are already defined in terms of them). Thus
the only definition possible is an operational one, in which time is defined by
the process of measurement and by the units chosen."
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From: Soo Ching Pin
Sent: 10 October 2007 12:56 PM
Subject: Time and Life/Re: For CP. Death/Life
KS,
If by "afterlife" we mean what happens to you after you die, I don't see why it should be a misnomer. Can you think of a better word to describe it? Think of a novel. In its printed form it is there "all at once" on your table.
Yet to the characters in the novel it seems as if they are experiencing linear time which takes them from Chapter 1 of the novel to the last chapter. If the author, having finished this novel, decides to come up with a sequel, the sequel would then be practically an "afterlife" to the first novel.
CP
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From: Cheah Keat Swee
Sent: 10 October 2007 03:39 PM
Subject: Time and Life/Re: For CP. Death/Life
CP,
I meant misnomer in the sense of Death/Life discussion and the concept of time. I had wanted to draw you to a concept that "eternity is now" and that you do not have to wait until after the "End of Days" and Judgment Day. I reiterate that eternity is not a function of time.
Maybe we should now move to the concept of Death per se.
Can we agree on the following parameters?
1. Death replaces time with timelessness.
2. Death stretches the boundaries of space to infinity.
3. Death reveals the source of life.
4. Death reveals the underlying intelligence that organizes and sustains creation. (My personal beliefs precludes me from using the word, "God")
KS
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From: Soo Ching Pin
Sent: 11 October 2007 11:22 AM
Subject: Time and Life/Re: For CP. Death/Life
KS,
Agreed on parameters 1-4. I also agree that "eternity is now" and we don't
have to wait until judgment day. However while we are alive on earth we
are still bound by time and we will be released from time only after we die.
CP
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From: Cheah Keat Swee
Sent: 11 October 2007 11:52 PM
Subject: Time and Life/Re: For CP. Death/Life
CP,
Might I also add another parameter (call it number 5) –
5. Death brings a new way of knowing that lies beyond the reach of the five senses.
KS
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From: Soo Ching Pin
Sent: 12 October 2007 09:24 AM
Subject: Time and Life/Re: For CP. Death/Life
No lah, being dead means all your five senses have shut down and you won't know
anything until you are resurrected at the last day/judgment day.
You may sleep for a long time but you won't know the passage of time.
CP
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From: Cheah Keat Swee
Sent: 12 October 2007 11:22 AM
Subject: Time and Life/Re: For CP. Death/Life
CP,
There was of course a reason why I included No. 5 after the fact; I did not expect you to agree. Could you please elaborate on your last reply? Do you mean, by your Christian beliefs this “limbo” you refer to is unavoidable before perhaps The Rapture?
How can this be congruent with your agreement that “eternity” is now. Do the heathen get condemned to the “eternity” of Hell immediately upon death or do they “sleep” in a different place?
KS
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From: Soo Ching Pin
Sent: 12 October 2007 11:32 AM
Subject: Time and Life/Re: For CP. Death/Life
KS,
I agreed that "eternity is now" because we Christians believe that eternal life begins once we have accepted Christ. We do not have to wait until after we die. This eternal life begins while we are still alive, and after we die it continues into eternity. Those who die will all sleep until the last day/judgment day.
CP
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From: Nicholas Ong
Sent: 16 October 2007 13:18 PM
Subject: Time and Life/Re: For CP. Death/Life
Hello CP,
Need your help, can you tell me where did you get this info from?
Nic
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From: Cheah Keat Swee
Sent: 12 October 2007 15:14 PM
Subject: Time and Life/Re: For CP. Death/Life
CP,
You are telling me now that you meant the symbolic meaning of eternity throughout this discussion? I was not referring to “eternal life”. Anyway, let’s cut to the chase; your objective is to end up in Heaven for eternity right? What do you think the Kingdom of Heaven would be like?
The Old Testament seems to promise a kingdom in a literal sense; God even covenants with the prophets and patriarchs they will rule the earth in His name. Jesus came and changed all that right?
KS
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From: Soo Ching Pin
Sent: 15 October 2007 16:33
Subject: Re: For CP: Death/ Life
Nic,
The Bible tells us that the dead do not know anything, among other things. You can find more details at: http://www.worldslastchance.com/chapter108.php
KS,
Jesus did not come to do away with the Law and the Prophets. He said so himself in Matthew 5:17 if I remember correctly. His Sermon on the Mount in chapters 5 to 7 of Matthew is a description of what Christians ought to be in the Kingdom of heaven here and now. Here I must confess my own shortcomings in trying to live this Sermon on the Mount.
Elsewhere, in Matthew 13 and other places, Jesus tells some parables to illustrate what the KIngdom of Heaven is like. When Jesus comes again he will raise up Christians to reign together with Him on earth. Then there will be a literal KIngdom of heaven on earth.
CP
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From: Cheah Keat Swee
Sent: 16 October 2007 10:54 AM
Subject: Time and Life/Re: For CP. Death/Life
CP,
CP,
Would you agree that there are different schools of thought regarding “a literal KIngdom of heaven on earth”? That Christianity today is stuck in literal images-such as heaven that is literally a place?
Christians end up arguing fiercely over an imaginary landscape far removed from Jesus’ actual teaching. Would you agree that Jesus can be credited with making the revolutionary shift of heaven from this world to the next? After all, by Jesus’ conception, Heaven is:
* Present – an inward experience that can be felt by the righteous
* Future – returning home to be with God (Judgment Day)
* Universal – an eternal abode beyond birth and death; beyond Creation
* Personal – found “within you”
In the Old Testament, the passport (righteousness in the eyes of Jehovah?) across seemed to be a matter of ritual, obeying priests, and divine commandments. If one looks carefully at the above 4 points, can it be construed that Jesus actually built a bridge to the soul? Could he be exhorting every person to find his way across?! Did Jesus effectively “internalize” the whole process; making each individual accountable?
KS
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From: Nicholas Ong
Sent: 12 October 2007 14:05 PM
Subject: Time and Life/Re: For CP. Death/Life
CP,
Thanks for the reference.
I’m very curious on how did these people (during biblical times) know that this “Intermediate State” exists. I don’t want to sound rude but it appears to me as another theory created out of thin air.
Maybe we ought to call Criss Angel the messiah or son of god, instead of son of devil.
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From: Cheah Keat Swee
Sent: 16 October 2007 1:29 PM
Subject: Time and Life/Re: For CP. Death/Life
From: Nicholas Ong
Sent: 12 October 2007 14:05 PM
Subject: Time and Life/Re: For CP. Death/Life
CP,
Thanks for the reference.
I’m very curious on how did these people (during biblical times) know that this “Intermediate State” exists. I don’t want to sound rude but it appears to me as another theory created out of thin air.
Maybe we ought to call Criss Angel the messiah or son of god, instead of son of devil.
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From: Cheah Keat Swee
Sent: 16 October 2007 1:29 PM
Subject: Time and Life/Re: For CP. Death/Life
CP,
Consider the “In the World - But Not of the World” message by Jesus (John 15:19, John 17:14, James 1:27, John 2:15, James 4:4) that has Christendom interpreting in a myriad of often divergent ways. Could it be that Jesus is actually giving a clue about the kingdom of heaven within?
KS
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From: Soo Ching Pin
From: Soo Ching Pin
Sent: 16 October 2007 15:43
Subject: Re: For CP: Death/ Life
KS,
Yes, there are different schools of thought within Christianity, not just about a literal Kingdom of Heaven, but about a lot of other things as well, some of which may be considered trivial. That is partly why there are so many denominations in Christendom.
Jesus did say somewhere that the Kingdom of God is within you. If I find the reference I'll get back to you on that.
You have done a good summary of Jesus' thoughts about heaven, in that it is both present and future, both universal and personal.
We are indeed individually accountable for our own actions. In the Old Testament, Ezekiel tells us that the soul who sins is the one who will die (Ezekiel 18:4, 20). In the New Testament we find Paul saying that we will be accountable for our works, e.g. in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15.
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From: Cheah Keat Swee
Sent: 16 October 2007 22:23 PM
Subject: Time and Life/Re: For CP. Death/Life
Let me share a thought with you.
The notion of heaven keeps things human and that is one reason the notion has survived so long. Humans seek the powerful reassurance that there is a place to go after we die, receiving our just rewards and rest from our labors. What if I was to say that every level of existence is actually a state of awareness and was formed in consciousness? In other words death is merely a shift in awareness. What if death is all just a state of mind? Can you ever remember not being alive? Could it be because you have always been alive?
“The kingdom of god/heaven is within you”? That’s precisely it; the knowledge associated with the riddle of life and death is not external to the knower but woven inside consciousness. Conversely, anyone can come up with first hand knowledge and the reason why we have not is because we do not contact the deepest part of ourselves; the soul!
The use of the word soul differs in meaning from the Christian one. This is where you and I will diverge.
KS
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From: Soo Ching Pin
Sent: 19 October 2007 09:35 AM
Subject: Re: For CP: Death/ Life
Sent: 19 October 2007 09:35 AM
Subject: Re: For CP: Death/ Life
KS
It is true we can't remember not being alive. Neither can we remember the time in our mothers' wombs, or the experience of being born. Yet we accept our mothers' stories about giving birth to us. We don't remember the first few years of life either. That doesn't mean all these things never happened. Our memories are not infallible, you see.
This kind of argument reminds me about the boy who complained to his parents that his history teacher expected him to remember things that happened before he was born.
CP
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From: Cheah Keat Swee
Sent: 19 October 2007 12:57 PM
Subject: Time and Life/Re: For CP. Death/Life
Sent: 19 October 2007 12:57 PM
Subject: Time and Life/Re: For CP. Death/Life
CP,
Can we now talk about Satan (Hell) the antithesis of God (Heaven)? Would you agree that mankind has largely moved beyond Satan? After all we have had about a century of secularism behind us (though communism is floundering) despite religious literalists.
What do you think if I were to say that to blame Satan for all things evil reflects our refusal to take responsibility for our afterlife?
Whatever its faults, secular culture promotes therapy, open-minded dialogue in areas considered taboo, discourages superstition and encourages people to take responsibility over their own destinies; all these speak of tremendous growth in consciousness, don’t you think?
As consciousness evolves, won’t Satan become increasingly unreal?
KS
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From: Soo Ching Pin
Sent: 19 October 2007 14:47 PM
Subject: Re: For CP: Death/ Life
KS
I agree that there isn't much mention of Satan in the secular writings which I have read. In the Genesis account when God caught Adam and Eve after they had eaten the forbidden fruit, the man blamed his wife, and the wife blamed the serpent, who was the representation of Satan, i.e. Satan had appeared to Eve in the form of a serpent. Ever since then mankind has always tried to find other people to blame when things go wrong. It is true that Satan tempts us to sin, but we can choose to say yes or no to the temptation. So we are still responsible for our afterlife.
CP
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From: Mike Naser
Sent: 19 October 2007 15:20 PM
Subject: Re: For CP: Death/ Life
CP,
When God's talking snake manifested itself as Satan, who created Satan or he/she was or is a separate entity?
How could there be Adam and Eve when our first mother was an African? Adam and Eve were a myth or what scholars called mythos - embellishments for the weak and gullible - as against logos - scientific, rational and empirical.
You cannot assume that the people in the past were (more or less) like us, but in fact their spiritual lives were rather different.
There is no Satan either. Its metaphorical for immorality.
We simply have to extricate ourselves from primitiveness. If we have strength of character and know good from bad, we don't need mythos to be our NEP.
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From: Nic Ong
From: Mike Naser
Sent: 19 October 2007 15:20 PM
Subject: Re: For CP: Death/ Life
CP,
When God's talking snake manifested itself as Satan, who created Satan or he/she was or is a separate entity?
How could there be Adam and Eve when our first mother was an African? Adam and Eve were a myth or what scholars called mythos - embellishments for the weak and gullible - as against logos - scientific, rational and empirical.
You cannot assume that the people in the past were (more or less) like us, but in fact their spiritual lives were rather different.
There is no Satan either. Its metaphorical for immorality.
We simply have to extricate ourselves from primitiveness. If we have strength of character and know good from bad, we don't need mythos to be our NEP.
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From: Nic Ong
Sent: 20 October 2007 00:41 AM
Subject: Re: For CP: Death/ Life
KS, CP,
Eh... this is like a wife who keeps sending sexy babes to tempt her hubby and expect him not to fall for it. Do we blame the husband or the wife when he finally takes the bait?
If god knew the future, he would know Eve will fall. (What kind of free choice was that?) Then he won’t be allowing dear serpent to anywhere near them. Also, If he knew Lucifer would turn against him, he shouldn’t even created satan.
By the same token, he knew and made me an atheist before I was even born, he knew all that. So I’m destined to die, sleep and wake up in hell? Great job, father.
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From: Cheah Keat Swee
Sent: 20 October 2007 09:41 AM
Subject: Re: For CP. Death/Life
CP,
That was not the context in which I was talking about Satan but never mind.
I find what you said: “Ever since then mankind has always tried to find other people to blame when things go wrong. It is true that Satan tempts us to sin, but we can choose to say yes or no to the temptation. So we are still responsible for our afterlife” difficult to comprehend. Can you understand why it seems like double talking to me? Why does mankind need to search anymore for people to blame; can’t they just pin the tail on the “Satan donkey”?
Evil, however you define it remains even after Satan has gone the way of the ancient gods of Mount Olympus that once served to explain every natural phenomenon; relegated to history. Like the Greek Gods, Satan has outlived his usefulness.
In that sense, I tend to agree with Mike’s statement; “Satan is metaphorical for immorality”.
I say this because we have the power to make Satan grow or diminish and more crucially, we have the power to make Satan real or unreal!
As I said earlier, “As consciousness evolves, Satan will become more unreal” and indeed I think many Christians are beginning to remove Satan from their psyche. The phrase, “The Devil made me do it” just does not cut it anymore.
KS
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From: Cheah Keat Swee
Sent: 23 October 2007 12:06 AM
Subject: Re: For CP. Death/Life
CP are you still in the conversation?
KS
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From: Soo Ching Pin
Sent: 23 October 2007 18:14 PM
Subject: Re: For CP: Death/ Life
KS, Nic, Mike
I think we have come to the point where we must agree to disagree.
To each his own.
CP
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From: Cheah Keat Swee
Sent: 23 October 2007 12:06 AM
Subject: Re: For CP. Death/Life
CP,
Thanks for the conversation.
KS
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